Worship and free will?
546012
The bible should never be considered anything but a work of fiction.\nEdit: I'd also like to point something else out. A lot of people are making the statement that God threatening with the possibility of hell is like a parent warning a child against a blazing fire. For one, the act of burning a child, though perhaps practical, is very cruel and sadistic. Kind loving parents would take a more practical and less cruel approach: simply do all that is necessary to keep the child away from the fire. There are numerous other logical fallacies in this analogy, but I would hope that they are painfully obvious to anyone intelligent enough to consider religion critically.
434791
Free will is an illusion created by those with power.  They mold society and deter or motivate the masses to do certain actions.  Religion is a fairytale used by the leaders of society to get everyone else to do what they want.
442585
In one sense,  both.\n\nHOW are we "free"?\n\nWe are free ABENTS --that is, we are free to CHOOSE, can freely make choices about what we do.  But, of course, we are not free to do just ANYTHING because of the limitations of our own nature and place in creation.\n\nSo, for instance, in may in one sense by "free" to do lift a building but what does that mean if I do not have the strength to do so?   I'm free to figure out complex mathematical formulas, but if I do not have the mental facility (and/or if the training is not available to me) what does the "freedom" mean?  Of what value is it?\n\nIn the same way, though I am a free AGENT, that does not mean my "will" is free.  In fact, Scripture is quite clear that human beings, born with a sinful, selfish nature are "slaves" to sin.  That is, even if we are "free" to do whatever we want, if our whole bent is to want only to serve my self, not to love God or others, my very will (what I choose) is itself BOUND, not ABLE to desire and choose what is good.\n\nThat is, unless and until God does something to FREE my will from bondage to sin and self to do what I humanity was created to do (to delight in loving and serving him --to FREELY choose what is good, as does God and the angels).\n\nThis is why the Reformers (not just Calvin!), following Augustine, taught that we are free to act as we will, but our WILLS --and WANTS-- are not free, but bound to sin.   In fact, Luther responded to the contrary idea by Erasmus with a book called *The BONDAGE of the Will.*   This is also a large part of what the Reformed & Presbyterians churches mean by "total inability" (a more accurate term than the oft misunderstood "total depravity").\n\nTo some degree the whole church has taught that our very WILLS, as sinners, have a bent against God, and that whatever "freedom" we have is limited by our sinful nature.  (But they also teach that the believer experiences some freedom from sin in this life, and perfect freedom hereafter.)\n\nDo note, in all this, that the Christian conviction is that really being FREE does NOT mean 'being my own ruler' (autonomy), but being free to want/choose and do what I was CREATED for.  (Compare a fish in the ocean, free to swim -- it is not "freedom" for it to leave the water.)\n\n-------------------\n\n"Free" AND Predestined?\n\nEveryone here seems to be making the assumption that we must either be free to choose OR God has predestined events --or at best that he has predestined things in a very general way and the rest is all up to us.\n\nI suggest that, as impossible as it is for OUR finite minds to reconcile the two it is NOT one or the other, or a compromise between the two, but BOTH are true.\n\nNow I noticed that the "we are free" side did not cite any verses, or any other evidence beyond their own.   Actually I think they could have.  Because we ARE free in the sense discussed above (and with the limitations!)  And the 'predestination' side is also absolutely correct to insist that God is sovereign, and especially that we (as sinners) do not freely choose to respond to him, unless and until HE choses us and acts to free our sinful WILLS to respond.  (Before that we 'freely' choose to rebel; when he has graciously wooed, won and turned our hearts** we freely choose to follow.)\n\n**note that he does not, in the process, violate our human nature, but works in keeping with it ('he does not treat us like sticks or rocks' the Reformers would say)\n\nThere is, of course, still a great mystery here and much that our proud hearts do not want to accept (we don't want to "let God be GOD!") -- but as with many questions about the nature and acts of God we should not be suprised that we cannot wrap our minds around it.  If WE understood how it all fits together WE would be God!   Yet we CAN understand and exp
315468
Good questions!  I like good subjest matter.  God is not some bug eyed monster up in the sky.  Why would he be all hateful when he needs us as much as we need him?  We do have free will, and i can do whatever i want because of it, but heres the rub, i was created by something with a view of the bigger picture.  So by virture of where i was born and my personality there are huge sections of human reality that will never even occur to me to do because of who and what i was made to be. Example : kiss my boyfriend, you betcha!; eat chocolate covered ants, hell no!
117980
No. How can an imaginary being have free will? There is no god so you will just have to accept:\n\n1. Mortality\n2. Responsibility\n3. Science
1070228
Free will... isn't an excuse to not take responsibility for your own actions.\nYou thoughts and actions ARE yours.  If you believe you are completely controlled by the universe, the universe would not have you ask this question as it would be useless.
709438
God has given to us free will.  We can believe in Him or not.  It is not His Will that any of us should perish.  But He gives us that choice.  He says in the Bible that His people are destroyed from lack of knowledge.   May God Bless
534270
Do you know what will happen 5 minutes from now? Neither do I. God does, but he's not saying. So in 5 minutes when I make a choice, God will know what choice I'll make before I make ti - but until I make the choice I won't know. That's free will and God's omniscience.
250090
Excellent question remag. Firstly I am for the matrix indeed. Now your argument is good and I agree with it, but it is only evidence against a god such as the Christian or Muslim one (one who puts you here and makes your life difficult and wants you to obey otherwise you go to hell sort of god), however if you consider a god that is far, far (I mean really far) above such things then your argument is not so strong. Consider a god that does not interfere with anything whatsoever. I'm talking about absolute true free will and not the phony kind, know what I mean?
832860
More importantly, and I suspect this is what you're getting at, why would a god who wants worship set himself up to be totally illogical and irrational? I think that if there was a god controlling it all, we'd be somehow predispositioned to believing in him, rather than having to ignore all logic and reason just to get into heaven.
737642
Will, it self has no purpose, until the two words GOOD and Bad or added. I myself was not raised to believe that, God is threatening in anyway. Only warns that free will, doesn't mean that the commandments are invalid.  When you walk this world without knowing who created all things.  It's going to be a journey beyond!   We all sin, it's human nature. ( Adam and Eve)  Not saying it is accepted by God, but he is forgiving!
262160
The short answer is that God is loving enough to allow us to suffer the effects (both good and bad) of our actions and the actions of others. If God did not allow us to experience the consequences of our actions (and others'), then free-will would be only an illusion, and God would be unjust in judging some worthy of hell, and others being admitted to heaven. OUR ACTIONS CAUSE EVIL, not God! Does God allow evil? Yes! Did God create evil? NO! God merely created free moral agents with the ability to choose to follow Him, and do no evil, or to rebel against Him, and do evil things.\nThat begs the question, why did God create free-will? Because without free-will, we would be nothing more than robots, or puppets on a string. God created man for the purpose of having relationship with, and to serve and protect the lesser creations of God (animals, the earth, anyone or anything less powerfull than ourselves).\nHaving said that, God does use evil (when it happens), to further His agenda for the earth, and particularly for those that love Him, and are called according to His purpose.\nGod created the POSSIBILITY of evil, He did not create evil, and along with the possibility of evil, had a plan to turn what was evil into something beautiful. THAT is why Jesus MUST BE God, Because God Himself stepped in and bore EVIL on His own self, in order to undo the power of evil, Jesus must also be man, because evil was introduced to the earth through a man, and a man must then break the power of evil.\nJesus was both 100% God and 100% man - fulfilling justice for both God and Man.
1039411
"Look, Lord!", said the angel. "The humans have come up with the theory of libertarian free will.... just like You said they would."\n\nThink about it.\n\nA little deeper.
71236
Agree with you. And adding: he already knows what will happen, so where does free will fit in ?
545779
jesus, he came up with the idea of free will in the first place.\nbut then again, we did go along with his idea, soo, WE ALL ARE! it was our choice in heaven. i mean, we coulda went with the "non-free will, totalitarianism" idea that lucifer had, but what fun would that of been?
382675
Ah but is it a gift or a curse just to be able to ask that question? Free will is a concept not an actuality. Does it exist or is it an illusion? Either way...what should we make of it? (Nothing like answering a question with more questions.)Perhaps if we transposed the words---will free---we would be happier with the choices we choose to make.
826409
First it depends on your world view.  \n\nIf your world view is that all is cause and effect, that only the natural world exists, then not only does prayer not make sense, but you have no free will, so it does not matter, the outcome is already defined.  Of course, you then have to accept that the universe is uncaused, or nothing creates something, which means you begin without cause and effect, and then you accept cause and effect.  There is an inherent contradiction.  However, it is a world view.  To solve it there are theories, but, the theories are designed to align with the world view.  The true answer is unknown.\n\nIf your world view is that a creator exists, then a creator creates for a reason, and your life, your independent spirit can exist under this world view.  Thus, it makes sense to pray and become aligned in some way with God the creator.  I think one of the strongest reasons to have this world view is our day to day experience that we have free will, that we can shape our future.  If free will is an illusion and I am deluded, then so be it.  It is my choice, based on my experience that I do have free will.  In this case, especially if it is true, prayer makes great sense to align your spirit with God, and get guidance.  \n\nHow does God do it?  No one knows for sure.  All you can find is experiential evidence, or read spiritual books and learn.  People can tell you what they have experienced and you have to accept or not.  It is like being open to love.  You can have great joy, and you may have great pain, more than if you not not love at all.  Jesus prayed so hard the night he was betrayed that it is said He cried tears of blood.  Was his prayer heard?...yes  Was it answered?...yes.  The answer was no.  But, He prayed correctly, not my will but yours.  He was spiritually led to his fate.  Kind of scary where prayer can take you.   \n\nMy experience is that when I pray, if I am led to do a hard thing that I do not want to do, I mean I just want to refuse to do it, then I know I am not listening to God.  That is one aspect.  Other aspects you will learn about from others and experience yourself.