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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
and all that. They're not more selfish. They're equally selfish. It's just that their self
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0325-large.html#02:25:11.580
Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
is smaller. Normally the self is huge. Now they got tiny little selves. Now what are
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0325-large.html#02:25:14.280
Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
the goals of tiny little selves? Well, proliferate, right? And migrate to wherever life is good.
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
And that's metastasis. That's proliferation and metastasis. So, so one thing we found
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
and people have noticed years ago that when cells convert to cancer, the first thing they
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0325-large.html#02:25:26.640
Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
see is they close the gap junctions. And it's a lot like, I think it's a lot like that experiment
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
with the slime mold where until you close that gap junction, you can't even entertain
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
the idea of leaving the collective because there is no you at that point, right? Your
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0325-large.html#02:25:41.440
Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
mind melded with this, with this whole other network. But as soon as the gap junction is
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
closed, now the boundary between you and now, now the rest of the body is just outside environment
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
to you. You're just a, you're just a unicellular organism and the rest of the body's environment.
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
So, so we, so we studied this process and we worked out a way to artificially control
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
the bioelectric state of these cells to physically force them to remain in that network. And
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
so then, then what that, what that means is that nasty mutations like KRAS and things
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
like that, these really tough oncogenic mutations that cause tumors. If you, if you do them
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
and then, but then within artificially control of the bioelectrics, you greatly reduce tumor
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
genesis or, or normalize cells that had already begun to convert. You basically, they go back
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
to being normal cells. And so this is another, much like with the planaria, this is another
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
way in which the bioelectric state kind of dominates what the, what the genetic state
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0325-large.html#02:26:38.080
Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
is. So if you sequence the, you know, if you sequence the nucleic acid, you'll see the
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0325-large.html#02:26:43.400
Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
KRAS mutation, you'll say, ah, well that's going to be a tumor, but there isn't a tumor
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
because, because bioelectrically you've kept the cells connected and they're just working
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
on making nice skin and kidneys and whatever else. So, so we've started moving that to,
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
to, to human glioblastoma cells and we're hoping for, you know, a patient in the future
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
interaction with patients.
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
So is this one of the possible ways in which we may quote cure cancer?
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
I think so. Yeah, I think so. I think, I think the actual cure, I mean, there are other technology,
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
you know, immune therapy, I think is a great technology. Chemotherapy, I don't think is
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0325-large.html#02:27:17.160
Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
a good, is a good technology. I think we've got to get, get off of that.
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
So chemotherapy just kills cells.
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
Yeah. Well, chemotherapy hopes to kill more of the tumor cells than of your cells. That's
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0325-large.html#02:27:27.720
Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
it. It's a fine balance. The problem is the cells are very similar because they are your
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
cells. And so if you don't have a very tight way of distinguishing between them, then the
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
toll that chemo takes on the rest of the body is just unbelievable.
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
And immunotherapy tries to get the immune system to do some of the work.
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
Exactly. Yeah. I think that's potentially a very good, a very good approach. If, if
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
the immune system can be taught to recognize enough of, of the cancer cells, that that's
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0325-large.html#02:27:54.720
Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
a pretty good approach. But I, but I think, but I think our approach is in a way more
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0325-large.html#02:27:59.520
Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
fundamental because if you can, if you can keep the cells harnessed towards organ level
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
goals as opposed to individual cell goals, then nobody will be making a tumor or metastasizing
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0325-large.html#02:28:08.440
Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
and so on.
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
So we've been living through a pandemic. What do you think about viruses in this full beautiful
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0325-large.html#02:28:15.440
Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
biological context we've been talking about? Are they beautiful to you? Are they terrifying?
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
Also maybe let's say, are they, since we've been discriminating this whole conversation,
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
are they living? Are they embodied minds? Embodied minds that are assholes?
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
As far as I know, and I haven't been able to find this paper again, but, but somewhere
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
I saw in the last couple of months, there was some, there was some papers showing an
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0325-large.html#02:28:47.200
Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
example of a virus that actually had physiology. So there was some, something was going on,
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
I think proton flux or something on the virus itself. But, but barring that, generally speaking,
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
viruses are very passive. They don't do anything by themselves. And so I don't see any particular
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0325-large.html#02:29:01.320
Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
reason to attribute much of a mind to them. I think, you know, they represent a way to
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0325-large.html#02:29:06.860
Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
hijack other minds for sure, like, like cells and other things.
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
But that's an interesting interplay though. If they're hijacking other minds, you know,
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
the way we're, we were talking about living organisms that they can interact with each
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
other and have it alter each other's trajectory by having interacted. I mean, that's, that's
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
a deep, meaningful connection between a virus and a cell. And I think both are transformed
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
by the experience. And so in that sense, both are living.
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
Yeah. Yeah. You know, the whole category, I, this question of what's living and what's
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
not living, I really, I'm not sure. And I know there's people that work on this and
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0325-large.html#02:29:56.320
Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
I don't want to piss anybody off, but, but I have not found that particularly useful
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
as, as to try and make that a binary kind of a distinction. I think level of cognition
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0325-large.html#02:30:05.480
Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
is very interesting of, but as a, as a continuum, but, but living and nonliving, I, you know,
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
I don't, I really know what to do with that. I don't, I don't know what you do next after,
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
after making that distinction.
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
That's why I make the very binary distinction. Can I have sex with it or not? Can I eat it
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
or not? Those, cause there's, those are actionable, right?
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
Yeah. Well, I think that's a critical point that you brought up because how you relate
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
to something is really what this is all about, right? As an engineer, how do I control it?
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
But maybe I shouldn't be controlling it. Maybe I should be, you know, can I have a relationship
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
with it? Should I be listening to its advice? Like, like all the way from, you know, I need
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
to take it apart all the way to, I better do what it says cause it seems to be pretty
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0325-large.html#02:30:48.400
Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
smart and everything in between, right? That's really what we're asking about.
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
Yeah. We need to understand our relationship to it. We're searching for that relationship,
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
even in the most trivial senses. You came up with a lot of interesting terms. We've mentioned
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
some of them. Agential material. That's a really interesting one. That's a really interesting
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
one for the future of computation and artificial intelligence and computer science and all
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
of that. There's also, let me go through some of them. If they spark some interesting thought
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
for you, there's teleophobia, the unwarranted fear of erring on the side of too much agency
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
when considering a new system.
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
Yeah.
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
That's the opposite. I mean, being afraid of maybe anthropomorphizing the thing.
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
This'll get some people ticked off, I think. But I don't think, I think the whole notion
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
of anthropomorphizing is a holdover from a pre scientific age where humans were magic
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
and everything else wasn't magic and you were anthropomorphizing when you dared suggest
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
that something else has some features of humans. And I think we need to be way beyond that.
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
And this issue of anthropomorphizing, I think it's a cheap charge. I don't think it holds
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
any water at all other than when somebody makes a cognitive claim. I think all cognitive
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0325-large.html#02:32:12.640
Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
claims are engineering claims, really. So when somebody says this thing knows or this
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
thing hopes or this thing wants or this thing predicts, all you can say is fabulous. Give
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
me the engineering protocol that you've derived using that hypothesis and we will see if this
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
thing helps us or not. And then, and then we can, you know, then we can make a rational
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
decision.
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
I also like anatomical compiler, a future system representing the longterm end game
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
of the science of morphogenesis that reminds us how far away from true understanding we
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0325-large.html#02:32:43.400
Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
are. Someday you will be able to sit in front of an anatomical computer, specify the shape
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
of the animal or a plant that you want, and it will convert that shape specification to
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
a set of stimuli that will have to be given to cells to build exactly that shape. No matter
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
how weird it ends up being, you have total control. Just imagine the possibility for
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
memes in the physical space. One of the glorious accomplishments of human civilizations is
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
memes in digital space. Now this could create memes in physical space. I am both excited
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