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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
of communication. What about in some sense, if it gets you to do something you haven't done before,
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0325-large.html#01:48:11.520
Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
is it answering back? Yeah, most certainly. And there's, I've seen cartoons, I think maybe Gary
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0325-large.html#01:48:19.040
Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
Larson or somebody had had a cartoon of these rats in the maze and the one rat, you know,
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0325-large.html#01:48:24.560
Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
assist to the other. You look at this every time, every time I walk over here, he starts scribbling
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
in that on the, you know, on the clipboard that he has, it's awesome. If we step outside ourselves
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
and really measure how much, like if I actually measure how much I've changed because of my
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0325-large.html#01:48:38.720
Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
interaction with certain cellular automata. I mean, you really have to take that into
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
consideration about like, well, these things are changing you too. Yes. I know, you know how it
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
works and so on, but you're being changed by the thing. Yeah, absolutely. I think I read,
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
I don't know any details, but I think I read something about how wheat and other things
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0325-large.html#01:49:04.080
Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
have domesticated humans in terms of, right, but by their properties change the way that
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0325-large.html#01:49:08.640
Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
the human behavior and societal structures. In that sense, cats are running the world
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0325-large.html#01:49:13.520
Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
because they've took over the, so first off, so first they, while not giving a shit about humans,
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
clearly with every ounce of their being, they've somehow got just millions and millions of humans
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
to take them home and feed them. And then not only the physical space did they take over,
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0325-large.html#01:49:35.680
Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
they took over the digital space. They dominate the internet in terms of cuteness, in terms of
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
memeability. And so they're like, they got themselves literally inside the memes, they
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0325-large.html#01:49:48.640
Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
become viral and spread on the internet. And they're the ones that are probably controlling
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0325-large.html#01:49:55.760
Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
humans. That's my theory. Another, that's a follow up paper after the frog kissing. Okay.
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
I mean, you mentioned sentience and consciousness. You have a paper titled Generalizing Frameworks
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0325-large.html#01:50:06.000
Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
for Sentience Beyond Natural Species. So beyond normal cognition, if we look at sentience and
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0325-large.html#01:50:18.000
Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
consciousness, and I wonder if you draw an interesting distinction between those two
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
elsewhere, outside of humans, and maybe outside of Earth, you think aliens have sentience. And
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
if they do, how do we think about it? So when you have this framework, what is this paper? What is
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0325-large.html#01:50:45.120
Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
the way you propose to think about sentience? Yeah, that particular paper was a very short
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
commentary on another paper that was written about crabs. It was a really good paper on them,
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
crabs and various, like a rubric of different types of behaviors that could be applied to
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0325-large.html#01:51:01.280
Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
different creatures, and they're trying to apply it to crabs and so on. Consciousness,
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
we can talk about if you want, but it's a whole separate kettle of fish. I almost never talk about
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0325-large.html#01:51:13.440
Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
crabs. In this case, yes. I almost never talk about consciousness, per se. I've said very,
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0325-large.html#01:51:18.400
Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
very little about it, but we can talk about it if you want. Mostly what I talk about is cognition,
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
because I think that that's much easier to deal with in a kind of rigorous experimental way.
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
I think that all of these terms have, you know, sentience and so on, have different definitions,
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
and I fundamentally, I think that people can, as long as they specify what they mean ahead of time,
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
I think people can define them in various ways. The only thing that I really think
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
that I really kind of insist on is that the right way to think about all this stuff is
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0325-large.html#01:51:58.480
Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
from an engineering perspective. What does it help me to control, predict, and does it help
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
me do my next experiment? That's not a universal perspective. Some people have philosophical
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0325-large.html#01:52:12.640
Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
kind of underpinnings, and those are primary, and if anything runs against that, then it must
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0325-large.html#01:52:20.720
Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
automatically be wrong. Some people will say, I don't care what else. If your theory says to me
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
that thermostats have little tiny goals, I'm not, so that's it. That's my philosophical
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
preconception. Thermostats do not have goals, and that's it. That's one way of doing it,
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0325-large.html#01:52:38.560
Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
and some people do it that way. I do not do it that way, and I think that we can't,
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0325-large.html#01:52:43.200
Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
I don't think we can know much of anything from a philosophical armchair. I think that
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0325-large.html#01:52:47.440
Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
all of these theories and ways of doing things stand or fall based on just basically one set
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0325-large.html#01:52:51.440
Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
of criteria. Does it help you run a rich research program? That's it.
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
I agree with you totally, but forget philosophy. What about the poetry of ambiguity? What about
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0325-large.html#01:53:01.040
Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
at the limits of the things you can engineer using terms that can be defined in multiple ways
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
and living within that uncertainty in order to play with words until something lands that you
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0325-large.html#01:53:14.800
Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
can engineer? I mean, that's to me where consciousness sits currently. Nobody really
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0325-large.html#01:53:22.720
Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
understands the heart problem of consciousness, the subject, what it feels like, because it really
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0325-large.html#01:53:27.600
Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
feels like, it feels like something to be this biological system. This conglomerate of a bunch
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
of cells in this hierarchy of competencies feels like something, and yeah, I feel like one thing,
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
and is that just a side effect of a complex system, or is there something more that humans have,
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
or is there something more that any biological system has? Some kind of magic, some kind of,
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
not just a sense of agency, but a real sense with a capital letter S of agency.
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
Yeah.
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
Ah, boy, yeah, that's a deep question.
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
Is there room for poetry in engineering or no?
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
No, there definitely is, and a lot of the poetry comes in when we realize that none of the
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0325-large.html#01:54:16.640
Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
categories we deal with are sharp as we think they are, right? And so in the different areas of all
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0325-large.html#01:54:22.240
Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
these spectra are where a lot of the poetry sits, I have many new theories about things,
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0325-large.html#01:54:29.680
Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
but I, in fact, do not have a good theory about consciousness that I plan to trot out.
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0325-large.html#01:54:34.160
Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
And you almost don't see it as useful for your current work to think about consciousness?
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0325-large.html#01:54:38.400
Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
I think it will come. I have some thoughts about it, but I don't feel like they're going to move
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0325-large.html#01:54:42.800
Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
the needle yet on that.
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
And you want to ground it in engineering always.
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0325-large.html#01:54:47.520
Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
So, well, I mean, so if we really tackle consciousness per se, in the terms of the
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0325-large.html#01:54:50.720
Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
hard problem, that isn't necessarily going to be groundable in engineering, right? That
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0325-large.html#01:54:58.240
Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
aspect of cognition is, but actual consciousness per se, first person perspective, I'm not sure
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
that that's groundable in engineering. And I think specifically what's different about it is
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0325-large.html#01:55:10.400
Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
there's a couple of things. So let's, you know, here we go. I'll say a couple of things about
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0325-large.html#01:55:16.480
Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
consciousness. One thing is that what makes it different is that for every other thing,
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
other aspect of science, when we think about having a correct or a good theory of it,
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
we have some idea of what format that theory makes predictions in. So whether those be numbers
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0325-large.html#01:55:35.200
Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
or whatever, we have some idea. We may not know the answer, we may not have the theory,
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0325-large.html#01:55:41.360
Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
but we know that when we get the theory, here's what it's going to output, and then we'll know
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0325-large.html#01:55:45.200
Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
if it's right or wrong. For actual consciousness, not behavior, not neural correlates, but actual
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0325-large.html#01:55:49.120
Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
first person consciousness. If we had a correct theory of consciousness, or even a good one,
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0325-large.html#01:55:54.320
Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
what the hell would, what format would it make predictions in, right? Because all the things
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0325-large.html#01:55:59.840
Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
that we know about basically boil down to observable behaviors. So the only thing I can
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0325-large.html#01:56:05.440
Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
think of when I think about that is, it'll be poetry, or it'll be something to, if I ask you,
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0325-large.html#01:56:10.640
Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
okay, you've got a great theory of consciousness, and here's this creature, maybe it's a natural one,
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0325-large.html#01:56:19.920
Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
maybe it's an engineered one, whatever. And I want you to tell me what your theory says about this
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
being, what it's like to be this being. The only thing I can imagine you giving me is some piece
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
of art, a poem or something, that once I've taken it in, I share, I now have a similar state as
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0325-large.html#01:56:36.640
Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
whatever. That's about as good as I can come up with. Well, it's possible that once you have a
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0325-large.html#01:56:45.600
Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
good understanding of consciousness, it would be mapped to some things that are more measurable.
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0325-large.html#01:56:51.360
Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
So for example, it's possible that a conscious being is one that's able to suffer. So you start
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0325-large.html#01:56:56.240
Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
to look at pain and suffering. You can start to connect it closer to things that you can measure
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0325-large.html#01:57:07.440
Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
that, in terms of how they reflect themselves in behavior and problem solving and creation and
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0325-large.html#01:57:16.400
Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
attainment of goals, for example, which I think suffering is one of the, you know, life is suffering.
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
It's one of the big aspects of the human condition. And so if consciousness is somehow a,
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0325-large.html#01:57:31.520
Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
maybe at least a catalyst for suffering, you could start to get like echoes of it. You start to see
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0325-large.html#01:57:40.720
Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
like the actual effects of consciousness and behavior. That it's not just about subjective
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0325-large.html#01:57:48.080
Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
experience. It's like it's really deeply integrated in the problem solving decision making of a
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0325-large.html#01:57:52.880
Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
system, something like this. But also it's possible that we realize, this is not a philosophical
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0325-large.html#01:57:59.120
Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
statement. Philosophers can write their books. I welcome it. You know, I take the Turing test
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Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
really seriously. I don't know why people really don't like it. When a robot convinces you that
https://karpathy.ai/lexicap/0325-large.html#01:58:13.360
Michael Levin: Biology, Life, Aliens, Evolution, Embryogenesis & Xenobots | Lex Fridman Podcast #325
it's intelligent, I think that's a really incredible accomplishment. And there's some deep
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